Java_Bob

well go ahead and move to a third world county who will welcome you with open arms........... i'll pitch in for the one way ticket .........

SilentWind(but_deadly)

Are you familiar with the the concept of a "straw man" ?
In a debate, it is generally defined by assigning a weak and easily refutable opinion to the side with whom you disagree, so you can yammer on about how right you are, and ignore any complexities associated with the subject.
Was oil (and our access to it) a factor. Of course it was. I notice by your location that you travel alot. Would you and/or your company make a profit if gas was $6.00 a gallon. Very similar to these suburbanites living in ex-cornfields in 500g's plus houses complaining about urban sprawl.
Do we own the oil? We want access to it. We want the Iraqi's to begin to
produce it again so they can pay for their own darn reconstruction. We want a stable global economy. But we are not stealing the oil as you insinuate.
The largest "straw man" about how "we" "never" talk about Saudi Arabia. I personally hear a discussion of it regulary. I'll give you that it's not eveyday. The nature of the daily news is about "what's right now".
To say it's been covered up is B.S. . Dealing with the Saudi government brings it's own set of complexities based on our previous relationship, what we want (for our own good) out of them, and what we (realistically) think we can get them to do without killing them all. You insinuate that everything is black and white, there are no complications or real world limitations on our influence. This stuff doesn't play in a frickin vaccuum.
Two weeks ago I saw a bunch of talking heads on CNN saying Iraq aint
over 'till we get Sadaam. Well we got him and people are still b*tchin' up a storm. As far as Osama goes, does it stink that we haven't captured him? I think you'll have a hard time finding anyone of any political persuasion say that it doesn't. We are trying as hard as we can. He is hiding with goats in caves where our fancy "stuff" doesn't give us the advantage we usually have. Am I to understand that all foriegn policy actions and reactions should cease until Osama is captured ? Good Plan.
Sadaam Hussien killed hundred of thousands of his own people and 'dozed some of 'em, Nazi style into mass graves. This is a fact.
Here's another classic, "we used to be friends with him". We chose the lesser of two evils in the 8 year Iran/Iraq war (anybody out there old enough to remember 44 American hostages held by what country?). Choices like this reflect decision making in the real world not a vacuum
(broken record). We attacked Iraq because of 9/11,because of the situation in the Middle East, because we didn't finish the job in 91, because of terrorist camps, because of WMD (let's no forget, even President Clinton agreed he had 'em ,if your going to crow 'till the cows come home because we haven't found them yet, crow on my friend, crow on.) We are not a perfect country, you take the cards that are dealt and you play them. I am 41 years old and I have never in my life seen so much hatred of country by our own citizens. Loving your country is similar to love for anyone or anything. You don't love it because it's perfect. If you don't think that this is the best country in the world, I certainly would say you should do some research. The people of this country are loving,smart,loyal, and a real can-do bunch. God Bless Bill Clinton. God Bless George Bush. Your hatred is misguided. It is coming from some other issue in your life. And for all you Bush haters. I happen to think he's doing the best he can, which at this point is pretty darn good, and I am not stupid, nor malevolent, nor snooty, so take some time to acknowledge there may be other opinions out there that come from the other side.

Thanks

groundstart

1. There is not other issues in my life that would make me make such statements....as a matter of fact my cuban cigar shipment just arrived so Im as happy as a pig in the mud..............

2. Lets see know....we have a president who didnt even win the election...

3. How funny is it that Halliburton got the sole contract for rebuilding...

4. There was no proof that there were terrorist training camps in Iraq...and if you cant figure out by now that Saddamm was on Georgie Junior's mind even before he fixed the election...then you are blind....

5. I notice that nobody wants to touch on the subject of North Korea....is it cause the facts are plain and simple....we couldnt beat them in a showdown....

6. There is no reason to move to a third world nation as the U.S. is slowly becoming one.....

Take my comments as you want.....but you know it and each and every one of us know it, deep down in our hearts we are nothing more then a bully nation full of corrupt politians who use the taxpaying citizens and their pawns.... How can we progress into a thriving economy when the media introduces violence and racism on TV....

Sit back and watch Irag turn into another Vietnam....a couple of deaths a week adds up.....we will wind up putting our tails between our legs and run home with fear......

Never in our history has some many countries expressed such anger at us...we are doomed....we must remove the Bush Administration and elect the new leader to bring us to success: EMERIL LAGASSEE.....

SilentWind(but_deadly)

It's all very clear now, everything I said is wrong, everything you say is right and this country really bites.

groundstart

Before this topic gets outta wack........maybe it should be put to rest.....

We have diffrent views and should not go on the attack because of them...

I guess this whole mess has got a lot of people up in arms and pissed.....

SO WITH THAT.....the topic of Iraq is over.....

dixiedogger

Why the hell do you get to say its over I dont see moderator by your name

groundstart

because this is such a touchy subject and since many people have different views of the conflict....this conversation will probably turn into nothing more then name calling and unneccessary jabs......

I am a peacenic....thats the way I was brought up, and my whole family also. I do not believe that killing people is an answer to solving problems...if it comes to that, then I feel that economic sanctions are the answer.....

I have never owned a gun...nor touched a gun.....(although people tell me I'm a smoking gun!!!)

These are my views......

Pirates_Ghost

Ok..you lot know I'm very opinionated, and often times a bit of a complete nutter...

I've read both sides of this thread (and I'm refering to Groundstarts view AND Silent's views)...and all can really say is this:

We live in a country, in my opinion (note: OPINION) a once great country, where we have a basic right called freedom of speach. Basic right set down by our forefathers who moved to this country for many reasons. Think this: 200 plus years ago we fought to the death, NOT to start our own country, NOT to gain independance from another country (don't belive? read up on it) but to get out of PAYING EXCESS TAXES!!

Even then, there were differing opinions on wheather we should go to war against mother England. Many thought then what many of us think now, that our government was full of money hungry war mongers. Which, we know now, WAS the case.

Nothing's changed, and why should it....is the USA the best country in the world? It is for some, but not for all. Regardless, we live here, and we have the ability to disagree without starting a war.....but then again....we've done just that, haven't we.

__________________
You can't wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you - Look, if I went 'round saying I was an Emperor, just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they'd put me away!

WATUSE

Guys, Guys, Guys. We should all remember the famous words by Rodney King qoute,"Why can't we all get along" and qoute.