JulianW

Sounds like what I had installed a couple of years back, people have complained about the water coming through the taps being cold for the first few seconds but I don't understand that complaint as it's the water in the pipe from the boiler to the tap that's cold and that's there on both types of systems.

If it's freezing outside I have to run the taps at 3/4 to get the hottest water out of the taps as it runs too fast to heat fully if the tap is fully open.

I have no real complaints of the system I had installed as it also runs water into radiators around the house for my heating and it's much more efficient than the old boiler as I only heat the water that I use and not a great big tank every day whether I need it or not.

HTH

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Java_Bob

Been listening to Rush I see... but really most people won't recommend them.

monkeylizard

I've been looking at them too. All signs point to "you need a booster tank" near the most used faucets. Umm...that's just a mini traditional tank. The tankless + 1 mini is about the same in energy use as getting a good energy efficient traditional tank.

The advantage then is that you regain some garage space (or wherever your big tank is now), but lose some under-counter cabinet space for the mini-tank if you opt for that.

If you like your water REALLY hot, then tankless usually won't suffice w/o a booster tank, according to my research.

papa-bear

my 2 cents

If ours was to break down or need replacing, I would put another in.

The one I have is natural gas. If I had a larger house, I would be tempted to put in a couple of smaller electric ones (depending on the lay out, one for the kitchen, one for the bathrooms and maybe one for the laundry room) This would just be to eliminate the delay from one main unit if they were not in one general location.

It takes about 6 seconds to get hot water to my kitchen sink (this is about 30 feet from the heater.) With a tank I had hot water in 2-3 seconds so the extra delay for the unit to sense the water flow and turn on the heating element must be 3 - 4 seconds.

There is a flow gauge in the unit so there has to be a certain amount of water flowing before the unit turns on and starts to heat. This can be a pain washing dishes if you don't want to run water for rinsing. I have a double sink so I could easily put soapy water in one and rinse water in the other.

The small booster tank would work to keep more hot water by the sinks etc... I have thougth about this but decided for the extra time and energy it would take to fill it to keep the water warmer for the durration, it was not worth it. I can handle the little delay and I doubt it would make a significant change in water consumption if one was paying for volume via water meter.

My unit is under the stairs in the house. There is a mounting option and external thermal sensor for mounting outdoors if one wanted to. The sensor is used to turn on the element every so often to keep the pipes from freezing. I personally would not go with this option. I like it (and all the pipes) being in the house.

As for temperature, mine is set for 130. That is hot enough that if I fill a sink to wash dishe with just hot water I can't put my hands in for very long (enough to grab a dish and get it out). I put one of those shower controls in to regulate the heat so when I turn the shower on the water is cooler (at maximimum heat) than the hot water that would fill the tub if I just had the hot water tap turned on.

One thing I regret but could still order is a remote unit to turn the temperature up and down. Right now, if I wanted to change the temperature of the water (If I recall the manual, it will go up to ~180) I need to power the unit down and change dip switch settings on the system board. There is a remote unit that you can mount on a wall to bring this up and down much easier and more granular (I think the switches are in 10 degree increments and the remote unit will let you do 5). My wife would like this for some of her laundry that she wants much hotter water for. Right now, she just makes due with turning off the cold water. I would put the tank up to 140 to make her happy but I don't think that would be safe for general use.

Benefits:

never running out of hot water. (can even fill the hot tub if I wanted to with hot water so can go in right away after a fill)

power bill generally went down. I can't say how much because I put a hot tub in at the same time I took the electric water tank out so the electric bill stayed about the same. But to look at my gas bill, it is about $25-30/month just for the gas (I don't include the delivery charges here as they have some strange model for calculating the delivery per volume used)

no tank to rust out due to sediment on the bottom (granted, most new tanks say they have internal technology to prevent this). On the same vein, the water has not been sitting for extended periods of time in a tank that some people feel is bad.

In general, I am happy with it. If I moved to a new house, I probably would not put one in right away but as you all know, you buy a house, one of the first things to break is the hot water heater so I would have plans to buy and install one as soon as it did. I might budget to do it right when I moved in but that would depend on finances at the time.

Hope this helps PM me if you have more detailed questions.

Ancient1

When we built on to the house several years back , wife wanted a garden tub installed. So, it was done. After all was finished, the reality of my poor planning came into view. The garden tub was useless since 45 gal of hot water would hardly wet the bottom of the tub. So, the only option was an inline heater. MG, they were expensive! Off to E-bay I went and bought a three stage unit for just pennies-on-the-dollar. The cost added up after a while. Each of the three circuits were put on 60 amp breakers as the instructions stated. This involved quite a bit of ( I think I remember pulling 7 strands of #6, may have been #4, slept since then) wire to handle the load.

Since I already had a 45 gallon tank and I was unsure if the in-line heater would work as claimed, I also left the tank-style heater on-line too. I like to complicate things so I have the valves set so I can run cold to the tank-style and then out for use, cold to the in-line and then out to use, cold to the in-line then to the tank style then out to use, and of course, cold to the tank style then to the inline then out to use. So , the garden tub could be filled now and the wife was happy.

The in-line worked rather well. Remember, this is a unit I bought off of E-bay. Unused, but pre-owned. One day I came home and found a small leak in the middle chamber. Nothing ruined yet so I shut water off to the system and called EEMAX. I told them what it was doing and I needed to order a new middle chamber, and they told me they don't leak there, they will send me a new upgraded one, they want that one back to see this! In just a couple of days I had the new upgraded version that fit in exactly where the old one was, no cost to me. Not Bad! Worked and didn't leak.

So, over time we basically forgot it was even there until one day we came home, ran some water for some reason and there was a LOT of air in the lines. There had been a break in the line below our house and when they shut the water off to fix it, they let a lot of air into the system. The slamming and pounding was rather severe. I thought we may break something since we are fed off a main at 125 psi. But, the plumbing held together but the in-line heater quit. The in-line is NEVER supposed to see air, only water. Called EEMAX to order a couple of new elements. EEMAX sent new elements NO CHARGE. After the elements were installed it still didn't work. Working with EEMAX we discovered two of the circuit boards and 1 triac was also blown. Once again, EEMAX sent me everything I needed to get the unit back up like new. NO CHARGE.

One of the main reasons I left the old heater in-place was since we sometimes have the "loss-of-power", I really hate to be taking a shower and suddenly have NO hot water to rinse with. We keep the tank-style set at ~110 and the tankless set to ~130. Start off you use a lot of hot and very little cold. After a few minutes you have to start turning the temp down in the shower. As I use the cooler "hot" water, it is replaced by hotter water.

If you have any concerns about which brand to use, I am here to recomend EEMAX. They have been great. Yes, after I got everything back and working the local water department had quite a talking-to from me.

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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

Michael Thomas

I have gas fired tankless water heaters at my home, my office and at 3 of our rentals. They can work well, but we encountered a number of issues when installing them.

I’ve put up a page describing some of the installation issues we encountered, and how to resolve them, but can't post the complete URL as 15 posts are required before I can post a link:

[removethis]paragoninspects.com/tankless-heater-home-inspection-evanston-chicago-il-faq.html

Java_Bob

one from another forum i visit..

Whenever we enter into a discussion on the Pro’s and Con’s of “On Demand Tankless” water heaters it ultimately opens a real can of worms.

From the information presented in your post your primary interest in an “On demand tankless water heater” is based primarily on the claim of high efficiency. Let us examine the facts. It is true that the electric tankless water heaters are typically rated at 93% to 95% efficient, but on the other hand, a state of the art electric tank type water heater has an efficiency rating of 90% therefore I would agree that the tankless can save you 3 to 5% of the electrical utility cost that you would pay to operate a tank type heater, But; When we consider that a 50gal tank type [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]electric [COLOR=blue ! important]water [/color][COLOR=blue ! important]heater[/color][/color][/color] retails for about $300 as opposed to $699 for an electric tankless the question then becomes: at a 5% [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]energy[/color][/color] savings, how will it take to recover the additional $399?

Now let us consider the physical aspects of the energy requirement. You already have a 50gal electric water heater, which no doubt has a 220v 30 or 40amp supply circuit. By contrast, a whole house electric tankless unit will require 220v @ 90 to 120amps. In most cases the current electrical service entrance equipment on the house is not capable of supplying an additional 90+ amp load, therefore in order to install an electric tankless water heater it could require upgrading your entire electrical entrance equipment, the line down from the pole, the weather head, electric meter box and your service entrance panel. I am sure that Hayzee or one of the other [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]electricians[/color][/color] in the forum could give you more details on this but I feel it would be safe to say that this could easily increase the cost of the retrofit by $1k or more.

You also stated in your post that both you and your wife enjoy very hot showers. The proponents of tankless water heaters argue that a tankless will provide an endless supply of hot water, but the question then becomes, what is hot? A tankless water heater is designed to raise the temperature of the incoming water by 70degF. In mid summer when the incoming cold water is in the 50 to 60degF range it can produce an unlimited supply at 120-130DegF at the full rated flow, however, the [COLOR=blue ! important][COLOR=blue ! important]plumbing[/color][/color] codes require the water supply line to be buried 6” below the average frost level. Here in W.Pa where I live our frost level is 36” and our water lines are typically about 40 to 48” deep. As a result in mid winter our incoming cold-water temps are 36 to 40degF. This means that at peak performance in mid winter a tankless will only produce hot water in the 106 to 110degF range. Also, a tankless will only produce its full rated flow when the incoming water is in the 50-60degF range. As the cold-water temperature drops a tankless automatically throttles back the flow rate to allow time to heat the water thus, where the tankless may be able to produce 6gpm in mid summer it may drop to 3gpm or less in mid winter.

Ancient1

This means that at peak performance in mid winter a tankless will only produce hot water in the 106 to 110degF range. Also, a tankless will only produce its full rated flow when the incoming water is in the 50-60degF range. As the cold-water temperature drops a tankless automatically throttles back the flow rate to allow time to heat the water thus, where the tankless may be able to produce 6gpm in mid summer it may drop to 3gpm or less in mid winter.


My comments are as follows:
1: True, the colder the water entering, the colder it is leaving. Have you ever taken a shower with KNOWN 110 degree water. Thats hot. Even on a good day the best I can stand is 106 / 107 and that feels like it may be taking my skin off. But, then again, it all depends on what model / capacity you bought. If you bought the one that would barely get by, you will see / feel "cold" spots.... if you over-size a bit, you have a lot of hot water when you want it and no heating of water for storage.

2: Other brands may "automatically throttles back", but the brand I have does not. It allows you to decide if you want more, but a slighty cooler water ... or.... slightly less water at a higher temp.

3: Also, a tankless will only produce its full rated flow when the incoming water is in the 50-60degF range.????????????????? All the rating I have seen for tankless type heaters have been in temp rise. If it comes in at 40 and leaves at 90, or comes in at 70 and leaves at 120, that is the same amount of temp rise.

My house is fed off of a main that is at 125 psi which is too high for the average home. A regulator drops the pressure down to 65 psi. True, I am not in anartica so the water temp entering the home doesn't dip below 45 at the worst. Yes, I am a water guzzler, all ( ALL) water restrictions have been removed from all faucets, valves, shower heads, etc. I have had the pleasure of doing a bit of traveling a long time ago and taking a shower where you have to run around the shower trying to catch the next drop of water that comes out sux to me. Yes, as a tech I tote my own tools with me and yes, when I left... the next person taking a shower in that location enjoyed full-flow to the shower head.

Anyway, water flow full in the shower, no restrictions, worst case I will have 2 of the circuits on full, and the third "cycling" to keep the output a constant 130. If the wife decides to turn on the hot water I can feel the slight drop in temp for about a 1/2 sec or so. If she turns on the hot water wide open, she can use more than the heater can produce. It doesn't take too many of the "HEYYYY!!!!" for each of us to learn to not turn the hot on full when the other is taking a shower. But, that was back in the days where the incoming cold water went straight to the heater and then to the shower.

To make a long story short. Both heaters have their advantage / disadvantage. If / when the tank-style we have dies, it will probably not be replaced. If the tankless dies, it will probably be replaced.

__________________
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Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)

gei_spot

I've been watching the DIY channel.. Yeah I know. But they have been installing these commputerized systems that regulate water flo and temp. Maybe that would be something that you would like to look into.

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